Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Hey, welcome to the gray SOPs podcast. Brian Phillips here. It's a really awesome backdrop that we have here today. Uh, Dr. Ken Hanson and I, and Ryan, Evan. We actually drove from our Chicago area location all the way down to Dayton, Ohio, where I've actually been driving down to this town for 14 years, where I discovered a very powerful community of scholar slash uh, the most powerful people I've ever met in my life kind of thing. Um, but really I say that, but JC studies.com is the website, but the teachings of JC studies, I kind of went like 14 years ago. I went to this, this place to become smart. And what I discovered was wholeness. I discovered Sabbath. I discovered really not people that just talked about or was Mark trying to teach us particular way, but they were actually living it. And it was very powerful to watch.
Speaker 1 00:01:03 And I became part of this Hebrew word that I knew nothing about back in the day, Harvard ream, I actually became friends with these people and really fell in love. It was kind of like this family that kind of created in my heart. And so I'm in, we're in Dayton, Ohio today with a very good friend of mine for 14 years now. Uh, James Whitman, who is, is, uh, the president and leader of JC studies. We're actually at his house in his backyard cause it's March early March and we're lucky enough to have 65 degree weather. So all of our podcasts gears, a little, very portable. So you're going to hear the sounds of nature on this podcast. Uh, Brody, the dog might even make a, make a display. He might come out and bark a little bit, but we're out here on a beautiful day and we've got a really awesome, powerful topic lined up to talk about.
Speaker 1 00:01:51 So, James, um, thank you for being a friend, thank you for the labor that you, you invest into the kingdom and taking the gospel forward in the way that you do. And I tell people all the time that I like messianic theology, but I always have to preface it. I'm like, I don't know what you think when I say that because there's probably 10 flavors or a hundred flavors of that stuff. Right. And I'm typical of words, right. I personally say I found the only the best one out there, you know, like I got lucky and found the best from the beginning. So I don't have to worry about pulling the weeds out.
Speaker 2 00:02:25 Well, I think, you know, in our previous discussion and it's so good to be here with you, Brian, Ken, Ryan, um, it's good to be personal with each other, right. Beads, zoom. I want you to know. So, and you said family, that's so true and you know, even, yeah, we've been talking right about how words then the, the way words have meaning, um, the way that words accrue meaning. And so even when you say, you know, messianic or the word theology, um, each of those has to be unpacked a little bit, right? So everybody gets on the same page. We like to say, um, that the goal of, of our, you know, teach or simple teaching ministry, we just have a deposit we'd like to make into each disciple's life. And that is to connect the testaments in order that they can flourish in their high calling.
Speaker 2 00:03:15 Because if salvation is anything, it's a, it's a high calling in the here and now it implies that the testaments have a disconnect. And I, and I think my experience shows that that operates on a lot of different levels. So this whole idea of connecting the testaments, um, this whole idea of the fullness of time, uh, this is what Paul says when he's reflecting on Jesus coming in that Jewish context over 2000 years ago to a time and place, this is how God is. He works within history. Always has he's, it's a place, Israel, they have a biblical history, they have a biblical language, they have a way of thinking. Um, and when we start with Jesus, we get a little closer to that way of thinking. And he really helps us bridge that gap between the testaments and help us redefine our terms and helps us with our thinking and helps us with our living.
Speaker 1 00:04:17 Yeah. So I'm honored to be here with you today because you actually have impacted my life. I think I've told you many times how impactful the spend, but it's really been the one thing that when I found JC studies, I'm really excited to have you in the grease ups culture, because we're going to bring more and more of you and your flavor into what we're doing, and really would like to kind of seat you in a special place. In our grease ups culture is as a teacher, one who would help keep us tethered to this ancient path. And so we're trying to empower men to live upright, that godly lifestyle, teaching men, that grace isn't, this sissy kind of thing. It's a, it's actually very robust. It actually strengthens your life, not, not overlooks your weaknesses, but, but it helps you be a man and look at yourself and go, okay, now be more like Christ.
Speaker 1 00:05:05 Like Grace's empowering us to do the things that Christ did. So I'm really honored to be here at your home and just here with you. And it's kind of funny cause you know, all of us even listening, do you have those people in your lives where like, you're always saying, yeah, let's do this and let's do that. Let's go here and Derek, and we've actually done a lot of that stuff, but, but really the last year we've been talking about let's do this and partner and then I'm like, I'm just going to drive a Dayton said, that's right. So here we are. And then Dr. Ken's gonna kind of take, take us into the introduction of what, where we're headed in this discussion. And I look forward to all the inputs going to be a great time. Thanks, Brian. Well, as a listener today, you are in for a treat because these next few moments are really going to be worth your while today, we're going to talk about biblical manhood. Um, we're going to talk about it maybe from a little bit different perspective than normally you've
Speaker 3 00:05:58 Heard it. We're going to talk about it, uh, from a Jewish perspective, from a, uh, from a biblical perspective, which is a Jewish perspective because we serve a Jewish Jesus and our roots are Jewish. And, uh, but most of us don't understand the constructs and the context of the old Testament. So we're going to do that. We're going to talk about, we're going to start with a conversation and biblical manhood, uh, about how to develop a biblical mindset or what we often refer to as a biblical worldview in our lives. We're going to talk about that with, uh, James, what does that mean to develop a biblical worldview or mindset? How do we do that? We're going to talk a little bit about the importance of learning, how to be a critical thinker today. Something that's absent in our culture, in our society. And then we're going to allow that discussion to take us a number of different places afterwards, but it all starts biblical manhood begins with developing a biblical mindset. Uh, so James, I'm going to kick it over to you to kind of start this discussion today.
Speaker 2 00:07:10 It's interesting, the way you framed that can is really helpful for all of us, because do say that we have a worldview or a way a framework by which we, um, put all the pieces together of the, of what we experience in our world. Just to, just to say it is really a healthy place to start because then we can identify, well, I have a way of thinking, right? It seems like that's where it begins for us. Um, you know, I love to use this illustration, especially with the Mar children, as we were growing up, you know, get out and get a ruler and say, okay, you, you were born into, let's say, I don't know where you would want to be. You're at 10 inches or 11 inches, as far as the historical timeline goes, but you've been born right there on the ruler.
Speaker 2 00:08:04 And there's all of this life that has been lived by people before that time and where you came in in that particular time and place, that's where you began to learn how to put the pieces together. So there is a worldview that you probably have heard this before, but you have a, you have a set of glasses that you're wearing by which you see the world, the Bible, then what is offering a transformation into a, what we would call a biblical worldview or a different set of glasses. It's the mind of Christ Messiah there, or a way of thinking like God sees the world is the goal. So no matter where someone was born into that ruler of history, it's the same goal for each of them. God wants to raise up sons and daughters and to do that is to teach them his ways. And that's basic Bible. I mean, I love David. David's a real model for us here as a, as a man, Lord, teach me your ways. I love your word clump more of it. I want understanding, I want you to show me how does it work in my life? How does it work in my family? How does it work in the world? Um, that cries is the basic cry to say, give me a different framework. Show me where the pieces fit, help me understand.
Speaker 1 00:09:44 Yeah. And the gray SOPs culture and how we create all this. We really aim it at the masculine. And because really to be quite honest, I mean, obviously God created man in male and female. So the female is just as important, but the masculine has been, it just seems like just being a man has been under so much attack that it causes men to become lazy. Um, it's hard to face the pressure of being a man. You know, Ken and I have talked many times and Ryan and I have talked about the, uh, the church culture culture at large, hasn't been too masculine friendly. You know, we walk into churches with all of carpet and, you know, purple walls. And you know, men are like yawning, like where, what the heck is this? Right? Like just, just these, these, we haven't really done. You know, you think about Jesus, his disciples, like fishermen tax collectors, like they were kind of like brutes, you know, they were like, and obviously they were men, uh, how we are going to discuss here today about they understood biblical masculinity.
Speaker 1 00:10:52 And we kind of want to take a snapshot because I, I think it's so important to have your voice with our voices in this, on, yeah. We're up against an attack, but like, like you said, on the ruler. Okay. So you were born at 10 on, on 12, you know, on a one foot ruler, the origins of the purpose of man haven't changed. That's correct. No, they really haven't changed. So like what, what did it look like in Jesus's day? Or what did it look like in the, in a Jewish mindset? Maybe? What did it mean to be a man? Like what did a man do? Cause I think today men are confused. We don't know our purpose. You know, we, we kind of had a pre-talk that we were like, let's start recording now in our free talk. And now we're finally back there now we're finally to recording, but they aren't pre-talk of this whole thing.
Speaker 1 00:11:40 It was, there was, there's kind of like this, this pressure where men it's hard for men to one know their purpose and really know who they are to critically think it's hard for men to it's it's I found even in, especially in church culture, it's way easier for men to be ring kissers. They sell a little piece of themselves to blend in and fit into some type of culture. Now I'm not that politically correct, or I'm not even, uh, very, uh, savvy when it comes to that kind of stuff. So I may not be right. Right. And some of the ways I'm unfolding this. Right. But my stance on how I see things is if you want me to sell myself to gain that from you. Yeah. I'm not interested in that, you know, like in, when it comes to like religious or church culture, um, if I can be myself around you and we can authentically have a relationship and I don't have to sell parts of myself to politically, please, you, you know, those types of things.
Speaker 1 00:12:40 So anyway, I'm kind of going down a rabbit hole, I guess, a little bit here, but I just kind of feel like in this day and age with culture, what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a bill? What is biblical masculinity? What did it a good Jew? What was Jesus? Like? What was his masculinity like? You know, like, cause I think there's a lot of guys out there listening to this that are like, it's a hard day to face that. And it's sometimes it's, you know, it's easier to ignore than it is to kind of, you know, lock horns with it. And so grease offs were like, Hey, let's lock horns with this so that you can actually break through the obstacles, get to the other side and actually do some powerful things, get back in tune with the biblical masculinity that God created us to be. So
Speaker 2 00:13:18 Yeah, it goes back to your opening comments can write that masculinity's culturally constructed to a certain extent and there's a relentless attack as Brian just pointed out against what I guess we could call, um, genuine or biblical masculinity. Interesting. Why is it under attack? You know, I think that's the question we all have to ask ourselves and you might be listening. Go on. I'm not sure really how it's under attack. Well, let's look at it this way. If, if culture, if culture can build your framework and the way you see things, then it controls the narrative as to what masculinity and femininity should look like. So that means, that means in contrast to the scriptures, there is a true, or there's an authentic masculinity and according to culture, then it's going to be skewed. Somehow. I guess we could call that a false masculinity. We're living in a day and age now where, um, w was unlike, say, I don't know, a hundred years ago, I didn't live, but I think you can understand that there's another, there's a type of false masculinity that swings to the other side where it's in, it's in control of everything.
Speaker 2 00:14:37 And it it's it's domineering that could be looked at as a false masculine as well.
Speaker 1 00:14:42 Caveman. Fair enough. Fair enough. I tried dragging my wife right here. She didn't like different day and age like honey, sorry.
Speaker 2 00:14:52 I was just trying it out. So one of the, well, I guess that, and I'd love you guys to give some feedback on this. So I think one of the questions that it begins to frame then is what, you know, why, why is masculinity under attack or maybe more specifically, how is it under attack in our culture? What, you know, um, what is it that men are facing as far as looking in the mirror and saying, what, what does it mean, uh, to be who God made me to be?
Speaker 3 00:15:21 I think the basic attack of the enemy has always been since the garden to distort, to distort what God has created. Yeah. So when Adam, when the serpent approaches Eve, the words that he speaks to her are a distortion. Did God really say that? You know, you know, you can't trust God in all of these casting dispersion doubt and everything like this. So the attack on biblical masculinity and femininity, and that's a really good point. You make, it's not just against men, it's against women as well. Think of what's happening to women in our culture today. And the kind of twisted femininity that is often taught, right, is the enemy trying to distort the true image because he's a counterfeiter. So the culture he through the culture wants to present a counterfeit masculinity and femininity because he understands the power of biblical identity. There you go, all right, what makes Jesus, man, what made Jesus powerful?
Speaker 3 00:16:31 Jesus knew who he was, his identity, his identity as a son of God. And as the son of God. So the attack comes because if men truly began to understand their biblical identity, Oh my the power that would be released on the earth, the things that could happen, the things that could be corrected, we talk about the overarching theme of the scripture is redemption. God redeeming his creation, not just mankind. All of creation eventually is going to be redeemed. Even this earth is going to be redeemed one day. Can you imagine if men began to operate in, in true, authentic biblical masculinity, they found their identity. As sons of God knew who they were. We need a transformation in our nation right now. That's how it's going to happen. What, what could happen? So the enemy is doing everything that he can to attack that whether it's a false view of what it means to be a man or the masculine, the masculinizing of man men, emasculation of men. Yes. All of this stuff. I'll start with a mask, but go ahead, Ryan.
Speaker 4 00:17:50 No, I can't. This is the struggle I have when I sit on pastors and scholars, and then they take what I have to say word by word or your notes on your phone, bro. Man, I was just about to say the same thing. I just need you to run the equipment. <inaudible>, you know, it goes back to something you were talking about last night and you brought up Brian about, it goes back to our vision of God. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:18:22 And I was gonna, I was gonna say, you know, that just along those same lines, like, like what Ken was saying, you know of, you know, he's a counterfeiter and, and, and what, what God intends for an authentic move. There's always going to be a counterfeit move when it comes to, uh, you know, you know, the agenda of the evil one, you know, with, with masculinity. Why? Because if he can pervert the two things that I always look at, you know, we can go through when, when, when Christ Jesus went to through the wilderness, uh, into the wilderness, um, after he was baptized, um, you know, and you look at the, at the battle that he was having with Satan right in the wilderness, and he was doing one of two things. He said, I was either, he was either attacking the nature or image of God, or he was attacking the nature of Jesus.
Speaker 5 00:19:07 Right. He was attacking those two things because if I can pervert either one of those, I can create that wrong pattern of thinking that will produce a wrong pattern of living in your life. Right. You'll begin to go down trails. You weren't intended to go down, you'll begin to live in a way that you were never intended or created to live. You know? And so again, restructuring, when we have these right mindsets and these right frameworks to, uh, to look through and these perspective, that's, what's so important, uh, about scripture and, and us really digging and wrestling with the scriptures is because it's, it's giving, you know, I always go back to that verse that says I'm seated with Christ in heavenly places, you know, because it allows me to a different vantage point. It puts me on a higher plane of perspective when I, when I begin to see through his eyes and I begin to see his narrative, you know, it allows me to live in the earthly realm when I'm, when I'm looking from the heavenly realm through, through his scriptures, you know, in a new way, in a godly way.
Speaker 1 00:20:06 Yeah. And I think, you know, as far as a man learning biblical masculinity, we we've kind of talked about this at one point here was I wrestled for years on this statement. Cause I struggled with his statement before I ever presented it publicly to people was, you know, the world has a version, this twisted version of we're all sons and daughters of God, right? Everybody's a son and daughter, well, if that's really true, then there's really no need for the cross. There's a real need for redemption. And we were talking earlier about how really the way we can look at it, uh, men is that we're born. We're born actually good, created the image of God, but we're born into exile. And so the God of Israel cast Adam and Eve into exile, and as I've learned through JC studies and your teachings is just, but then God goes with them, you know, and that's such a powerful and important thing, I think to support local masculinity, understanding the, these, these we're really trying to help you understand the origins of the greatest thing I've learned from you and Dwight is how to think, not what to think, but how to think.
Speaker 1 00:21:19 And I think that that's kind of why I get scared to learn from certain people because I don't want my brain to be washed over or my own, my own analysis or my own critical thinking. So I think when we look at the snapshot of kind of what we're seeing is like the biblical masculinity has its origins in, in these deep foundations, in these identities. So if I'm a son of God, if we're not all sons of God, we're created an image of God. That's what we all have in common. I become a son through the adoption, through the, what the Holy spirit does in my life. And I could, I felt that I had to walk through some very painful days, walking through the fire is I've heard how you kind of said, you know, I went through that fire. Like I remember going through the fire where the Holy spirit was sealing in me, my son ship.
Speaker 1 00:22:05 And it was that adoption process that I don't doubt to this day. I don't doubt that I'm a son of God. You know, I just don't doubt it. And from that place, that's all part of how I found my identity. Um, but I think what I'd like to just kind of insert here is it's not an overnight, it's not like a one and done, you know, you're not going to read three paragraphs and have the two points of, you know, your walk with God. It's a, it's a continual crashing into the things of God, a continual discipline, a continual it's a continuum of this beautiful journey. You know, not just a moment because I think people make mistakes when they've lived from this moment and experience, it's like build some history with God, build some history with the people of God. So for me, the origin of discovering a lot of my purpose has to understand the adoption process.
Speaker 1 00:23:01 Understanding I am a son of the living. God, not because I didn't save myself. You know, we can get into that if we want to hear, or maybe later, but I didn't save myself. God's salvation is redeeming and making all things new. And now as one of his through receiving the cross is grace. I get to now partner with him to make all things new, you know? And so that's, that's a huge part of my purpose. I mean, it sounds really simple, but I, I get to part of my purpose is partnering with the energy of God, whether you're a businessman or whether you're a greed employee or your boss, or you're just, maybe you're a gas station clerk, or you work at Starbucks, wherever that might be. You're partnering with the great commission energy to bring heaven into the earth. Nice. Isn't that purpose? That's part of our purpose.
Speaker 2 00:23:54 Well, you know, it makes me think of why the gospels, right. Is it, are they just there to get us to the death of Jesus, even in you, you, you understand that they, they, the pattern of life. So you, you said, you know, we're born into the world. Um, whether, you know, somebody wants to debate good, bad, or otherwise that the biblical picture is clear. We don't have the spirit. That was, that's what we're made for that, uh, that dwelling of God in us. Yes. Which creates the <inaudible> motif in the garden of Eden with, without that scripture. So we're subject to the powers, um, you know, our own weaknesses, um, uh, to, uh, what, uh, others, uh, you know, wreak upon us. And as we grow, it's, we're able to wreak upon others. And so when we see the absolutely well said the salvation work of God's son, as the Messiah of Israel, the resurrection becomes so incredibly important as he defeats sin hell and death becoming of the spirit.
Speaker 2 00:25:14 Then the book, beginning of the book of acts, when it's really takes us back to the pages of the gospels, where we began to follow Jesus the same way men and women followed him. And he became a real present mentor to them, teaching them, revealing to them who the father is. And isn't it interesting. You look at the disciples, you've got quite a, you look at his male disciples, his 12, you've got quite a spectrum of masculinity represented there. Yeah. And that may be one of the very first traps laid by the enemy is that masculinity looks this way only. I like what you're saying. You know, when, when we are restored into relationship with God, we have gone through this adoption process by grace, right? Our faith has laid a hold of this and we receive his spirit, which is the spirit of adoption, cries out Abba. We begin to follow Jesus. And he, it is who teaches us the purpose of our life, the calling, the way we go about it,
Speaker 1 00:26:28 This topic we're on about how do I discover my purpose, the purpose of a man, right? What's my, why, what's my purpose. What's my drive. Because once we discover those things and I, and I, I'm going to bring it up as a little, it might be funny, might be a little off, but that's what I do. And, uh, Adam, God creates Adam and Eve it doesn't tell them how to be intimate. You know, they don't have to read a manual on how to, how to create babies. They kind of had the chemistry to figure it out. Right. And I think that that's mysterious. Like, God, it's like when we discover the purposes of God, what is my father in heaven doing? What's his, what's he trying to do in the earth? The, the Scarlet thread of redemption and the gold Goldens, right? Or the ruling and reigning kingdom. He's the blood saves in, but the Sceptre of God rules over my life, right. The crown, you know, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the father and he wants to save me and rule me. No, we don't. You know, so as a man, I have to come to terms with that. That might, you know, the, the question we were talking about earlier, what did Israel do to save herself? Right. Right. And that, that's what Dwight asked you one day. Great question. What did that do to you?
Speaker 4 00:27:38 Good deed. Did they do in Egypt that moved to God to come and rescue them? Of course, the answer is nothing,
Speaker 1 00:27:48 But it went back to what, what did you say? Remember the prophetic, I was fulfilling this promise. He was being faithful to his word. And I think as men, once we discover who God is more, and we discover what is God being faithful? Because my purpose is going to line up a lot with that. He's given me, he's gifted me. He's giving me skills. You know, some of us have skills to run companies. So most of skills to create products, some of us have skills to manage. Well, some of us have skills to, uh, to do the small little tasks that no one else cares about. But you think is the coolest thing in the world. And God gave it all the skills and all these different ways. But it's a lot like Adam and Eve, he didn't give us the details of how to be, you know, how to go create children. It's like, he gives us these desires and he's like, you'll figure it out. And that's where that, that it's, it's kind of a serious, isn't it? Like,
Speaker 3 00:28:41 I love what James said.
Speaker 4 00:28:43 <inaudible> because this is what you're talking about.
Speaker 3 00:28:54 You, you said the trap of the enemy is this, that masculinity has to look like this. This is the only version. You know, I found that the enemy gets us, even in one of a couple of ways, he either gets us to, under-do not do or overdo things.
Speaker 4 00:29:18 Yeah. The trap of
Speaker 3 00:29:19 The enemy, there's one way, right? There's one way to be a man or look like a man. The reality is, and I want to throw this out. Is, could it be this that we're talking about the need for biblical masculinity, that there is a mindset that God wants every to have, that is common. But the expression of that biblical mindset has to do with the way that God wired you, your personality. So you could be a biblical man operated in biblical masculinity and hate sports and be the geekiest nerdy guy. Right. But you are a biblical man. You, you, you are fully in the category of biblical masculinity, or you could be the 320 pound malign men on the football team, physical brute, weightlifter, whatever into sports. And if you have the biblical mindset, the right mindset, then that's biblical masculinity and everything in between those spectrums. And so that just really captured my attention. That, that one thing, the trap of the enemy is this, that we would make people of biblical masculinity, very narrow. This is what it is.
Speaker 5 00:30:40 Yeah. And I think that we've got distracted, right? We get distracted from the essence or the substance of what God's intentions are by being distracted with the expressions, the different expressions of it. And then we begin to rank or categorize a different expression and create some sort of superiority within these expressions of masculinity or what we believe, what culture believes this should look like. And I think it's simple. I think it goes back to Genesis two. And it's kind of, as I've been thinking about it while we've been sitting here, because we had this conversation a little earlier, I think before we started recording about Genesis and God creating man and woman, you know, and then the separation that happened. And, uh, but when it goes into, uh, Genesis two, where he's talking about the garden and he gives them the assignment in the garden to work it and keep it, you know, and, and really, I started thinking like, okay, so there's, God has a mission, right?
Speaker 5 00:31:38 Within that garden, he has an intention for the earth in the, at that point. And then he, and he places us in it to work it and keep it right. And it's kind of going with, like, with what you're saying is like, where are you in that picture? And how are you being found faithful to work what God has given you and to keep it, to provide for it, to protect it, to guard it. Um, you know, it kind of just, it's like, so in everything that we're doing every day, we're all called to different spheres. Some of us are tradesmen. Some of us are ministers. Some of us are doctors, all these different things. So how am I in touch or in tune with God's mission? Um, you know, that could be on the, uh, on, on the big scale, right? God's total mission of, of the great commission and all these other things to go out and make disciples.
Speaker 5 00:32:25 And then it could be God's mission within my specific sphere of influence, right. Of what God is wanting to do right here in my hospital. What is God wanting to do right here in the sphere of influence that I have. Um, and then how am I pursuing that, right. This pursuit, I think of masculinity. I always look at my wife and it's like, right where we pursue them and we go after them. And it's that same relationship with Christ where we're, we're engaged in a pursuit wanting to know who, to know his thoughts, his mission. Um, and then we have this responsibility then to provide and to protect. Um, and it, it kinda is getting into that thing where it's not about the expression, it's about what was God originally intending, even in those words, when he says work it and keep it. Like, I, I dunno, it just kind of keeps sticking out to me, like with what you're talking about of, of God had God has this blueprint, right. And it really comes down to a mindset of masculinity and a framework for masculinity, not the expression of it,
Speaker 1 00:33:27 James, in this discussion we're having here, we've talked about the garden a bit, but to point the discussion to Jesus's masculinity and the masculinity of the 12, like to go into that world, that snapshot go back to the ruler of that, you know, go back to the, on the analogy you had, let's rewind back to that day. Um, using some of the concepts we've thrown out here, what was the biblical masculinity? Um, like in Jesus's day, what were their passions? What were their, uh, maybe some things we've left out or some things we've overlooked, maybe like, what are, what are some of those? Um, I mean, mine, you know, I think of the text and there's, there's certain things that we've maybe don't emphasize as much, but what would you, how would you respond to that description?
Speaker 2 00:34:17 Well, one thing that the world of Jesus that, uh, what we call it, scholars call second temple period. Um, uh, when they come back from exile and that's that period at really fervent period, that when we're in seminary, they call them the silent years, which is kind of humorous because one thing people are never, and that's silent. And the same with God. It's not like there's a dormancy. There it's a incredibly fertile time of development for Israel, right? There's a lot going on. There was the whole Greek period where they were conquered, Alexander dies, they're divvied up into, you know, a, uh, a series of regional, uh, control the Jews, always, um, always battling for their call, their sense of calling collectively as a people, um, to be a light to the world, you know, to be the, to be the preservers of the, of God's Holy word, to sanctify his name in all the world, these themes, these biblical themes were always a part of the Jewish world, even, even to the point where Jesus tells us, you know, this is the pattern, prayer, our father in heaven, hallowed, be your name.
Speaker 2 00:35:29 May we sanctify your name and all that you think speak and do. Um, so we've got this fervent in real exciting parts of history going on, where we have writings from that period. Um, so we know what a lot of the conversations were. What I love about this period of time is it really fostered, um, it empowered the masculine, it empowered maleness to follow their God-given calling, uh, as a nation, um, as I just highlighted. So they, it, it ha it was a culture that valued God's word from the earliest days of your infancy infancy. You would, the scriptures were a part of daily, some of that's idealized, right. Um, but it was always the goal, um, to love God by loving his word and obeying him. And part of that obedience, the most, the most primary part of that was bringing all those in your circle of influence into that love into that cherishing of the word of God.
Speaker 2 00:36:43 So in a sense, it's a little bit, um, you, you talked about the spectrum earlier, Ken, right? That, that comes right from Genesis one, a scripture we keep alluding to, right. And that is, God said, let us make man in our image and after our likeness and that's, uh, that I'm, I'm in gen Genesis one 26 brilliant text that has a lot of great Jewish commentary. What does it mean to be image? What does it mean to be likeness? And you notice it proceeds it's um, uh, any discussion of male and female. So who are we we're made in God's image we're made in God's likeness is Brian. You were pointing out earlier. And, um, he goes on to say, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the heavens over the livestock, over all the earth and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
Speaker 2 00:37:32 So we've been fleshing that out a little bit. This created wonder gift from our great creator. And he wants us to follow his pattern and work the world. Um, that word dominion, I think, is not what we would think it is. It's, it's take responsibility, be the steward, take care of it. We're imitating God from the very beginning. And then he goes on verse 27. So God created a Dom man, or that's, it's also the word for dirt. He made the dirt man in his own image, in the image of God, he created him, male and female, female. He created them and God blessed them and said, be fruitful and multiply. So there are a couple things going on that were very important. These are foundational to the biblical worldview of Jesus. There is this great creator and that the creation building one thing upon another, each thing that's created has purpose.
Speaker 2 00:38:37 And it's working in harmony and it's taking care of everything until he gets to us. And he says, this is my crown achievement. This is the goal of the tell us of creation, you and your maleness and your femaleness. And then he blesses them. He blesses them. And Brian, that brings me back to something you said earlier. You know, that spirit of adoption is a spirit of blessing settling us once. And for all that, we're reconciled with our father and our father, just like he gave to his people through the priesthood. The Lord wants to bless us. The Lord keeps us, he lifts his space upon us. His countenance towards us is favorable. He gives us Shalom that settling things with God, from there becomes the revelation of God's great creation. And so when we get to Genesis separating, the two, we have to remember, they were made one separating. The two creates that spectrum, right? So I think we could say, and I don't think this is an, you know, we can all have some fun with this, right? The text is meant to be a delight that separation of male and female,
Speaker 6 00:39:54 I was going to leave a little feminine in the mail. It's going to leave a little masculine, the maleness in the female. So you're going to have these
Speaker 2 00:40:02 Spectrums. And, and I think one thing that really, um, you know, it really heavy on my heart in the church today in buying into cultural concepts, doesn't have a place for a male. Who's a little more intuitive, a little more emotionally sensitive. Now I'm not saying emotional but sensitive. Um, to that side of femininity or a female who's is, is sensitized a little bit more to a type of maleness, right? So in, in labeling these things, we do a lot of damage to the, the beauty of being made in God's image and likeness and the beauty of taking all your clothes off and looking in your mirror, what, according to your equipment, that's what you are,
Speaker 6 00:40:52 But with variables, right? Yes, because that's the beauty of it, right?
Speaker 2 00:40:59 In the kingdom, in your original creation, that's a beautiful, you're made in a beautiful way. You bring things to the table that are unique to you and contribute to God's kingdom and his redemptive plan for humanity. So for the church to buy into cultural labels, the one type of masculinity or the one type of femininity then creates a, uh, it takes places away from God's table for people to set, you know, fail.
Speaker 3 00:41:29 So pushes people into boxes. So in our culture, if you are a male that has some female expressions that emerge, you're more intuitive, you are more emotional. You are immediately dubbed labeled, put in a box, Oh, you are, you know, maybe homosexual and the reverse for a female, Oh, you must be a lesbian. Right? And this is the problem that we do the same thing with God. We try to put God in a box with our theologies, with our system, we try to categorize everything and God won't be put in a box. So why should his creation be put in a box? And we try to put things in a box, bad things happen instead of seeing, I love that, that word, the spectrum. Yeah. That as a male, there's a spectrum is a female. There's a spectrum. And all those spectrums can, are within, you know, the biblical mandate, but let's not put people in a box. Let's not label them all. They must be correct. Because in doing that, that's exactly what the enemy wants us to do. We fall into the world's trap, his trap. I love that boy. That, that explains a lot to me. That gives me a whole new framework to see that whole discussion.
Speaker 2 00:42:49 Yeah. Yeah. Because we, and, and so what we need as men is to appreciate the gifting in our brothers, not judge it, not try to have them conform to us or us to conform to them. We need to acknowledge we need the spectrum, right?
Speaker 1 00:43:11 Yeah. I mean, I think for me, you know, I kind of came and I think a lot of it had the spectrum idea also how you were raised, you know, if you were raised with a father, if you were raised with, you know, your parents are still married or maybe divorced divorce runs rampid, you know, even in church culture, all of these things impress on us when we're children. And some of us can have these wild experiences that are very painful and, you know, in that goes to how it can stunt us. It can help us grow, um, you know, be a tough guy, right? Like, you know, we're really careful with grace offs to not define this as masculinity, you're trying to aim it to be, to this biblical concept of masculinity, which is kind of like a shared, it's a shared mentality is it's shared values.
Speaker 1 00:44:02 It's a, we can all do this together. And I think that our culture, not altogether, but I think it's definitely a church culture, but we've, we've lost like the collectiveness we've lost. Like, like you said, like the brotherhood, like let's do this together and I'm not looking because that's kind of a tough one. Right. Like I, cause I was, I am a kind of a jock, right. Like I, I wasn't athlete. I, I was kind of the tough guy mentality, you know, kind of still have that kind of thing. Right. Like, you know, I may not be to beat you up, but you'll know you got in a fight with me, you know, that kind of stuff. Right. Like, it's like, you know, what might be the toughest, but you'll know I was, I was in the battle, you know, kind of thing. But, um, and not to define that as masculinity cause that I found that lifestyle, my own makeup too, I would describe it.
Speaker 1 00:44:47 A lot of is broken masculine. You know, there's, uh, uh, being a tough guy is not always the answer, you know? And I think, um, I, you know, so for me, the context of what I want to help men discover is what is your purpose in the origins of what God created? Or if you created an both male, female, and they were together. So I guess we're, we're already kind of stepping into the, separating it out. Like, so if we were to separate out the masculine has variables, like we've talked well, what is the purpose of a man? Why do you breathe there? And then the older you get, you realize I'm not going to be breathing air much longer. You know, even if it's just 20 years from now, 20 years is nothing. It goes by so quick, right. We're going to blink a couple of times and 20, 25 is going to be here.
Speaker 1 00:45:34 I mean, it's just, you know, we're gonna, we're going to wake up like two days from now. It's gonna be Christmas again, wait, but let's get through spring and summer first. But you know, like what are the, like when I think about Christ and I think about, you know, so you think about God is mainly recognized in the scriptures as the masculine. Yes. He, um, you know, maybe we could talk about that a little bit. What's the point of that? Um, and what's the point of a man and then I don't want to go deep into this, but it brings up this monotheism and the one God and the Trinity language of, cause it's interesting. Some people I trip up on it still sometimes when I look at the life of Jesus and like, but that's God, they're all one like the Holy Spirit's helping me, but that's God, they're all one, you know, like, so the white had put it brilliantly in one of the classrooms I was in with him. And I think I remember correctly when he said, you know, the best I can say is in essence, they're all the same, but in function they're different. Right? There's different functions of the Godhead or the same spirit. Like Denise, he just say, he wasn't going to go very deep.
Speaker 6 00:46:40 Well, I met like not long <inaudible> well, I think that we're on a topic where
Speaker 1 00:46:48 The purpose of a man, I mean, it's like, it's not a simple answer.
Speaker 3 00:46:52 I think it's great. It goes back to something you mentioned a moment ago. What is our calling? Yeah, we wander because as men, we don't understand our calling. So even in, you know, in the Jewish culture, even in the old Testament, what, what did those Hebrews, what did those Hebrew males see as their calling in life? What was driving them? And I think going back and understanding that helps inform us no question, no question, speak to that
Speaker 6 00:47:23 Is that is I think, and we keep circling back to it and Ryan it earlier, and
Speaker 2 00:47:30 Brian, you've been talking about it, Ken. It is, it starts with who is God, what you, what is he like? We're coming up on the season of Passover here on our calendars. We're all sitting out back here. And of course Jesus was crucified during the Passover season. The lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Paul says in Corinthians, um, Messiah Christ, our Passover lamb has been sacrificed taking us back to the great archetype of salvation, the deliverance from Egypt. So I'm just going to, I think most of you have the background to the story. We have the children of Israel in Egypt and we have the father acting out of his steadfast love out of his constancy, out of his unswerving commitment to the work of his hands. His been from the very beginning working to undo the effects of the fall. And he flies it, serve his servant Abraham and so begins this incredible journey, uh, materializing and culminating in the expression of his purposes, Israel. And so we have that architect type of salvation where in captivity, we're enslaved to a cruel Pharaoh without hope without God in the world. And he enters into our captivity and he brings about his deliverance, his time, his way, he leads us through the red sea and he leads us to his mountain of promise and there he delivers what we've been missing. And that is his very presence.
Speaker 2 00:49:17 That paradigm is the motif of Judaism to this day. So when they rehearse relive re-enact is families and communities, the Passover, they are talking about God, his character, his activity in history, what he has done, he does and will do. And it's getting caught up in his redemptive purposes. That kind of, you know, Ryan, you said it we're seated with Christ in the heavenlies, right. Kind of, kind of elevates this discussion. We've just to acknowledge that there is a little, so let me, let me back up and just summarize it, my thought this way and pardon me if I'm a little, all over the place. But if there is such a thing as a, a worldview that is not God's and there is such a thing of a way of looking at the world that is more through God's eyes, right? Moving from one to the other and adopting his ways.
Speaker 2 00:50:26 And we do see male and female, right? But we also understand that we have his blessing. We now begin to operate who we are out of that blessing, and it kind of elevates the discussion. And we're not even given over to, um, cultural categories. We are the people of God who've been delivered. We are redeemed people who are now working with our father in a redemptive partnership so that others can have the exact same experience. And that is the call of every man and every woman in the kingdom being who we are learning to learn, to be comfortable with the blessing in our own skin, getting healed is part of the process of following Jesus and community. Is it not in that daily, getting healed net daily, getting filled in that daily vision of what we say, what we do matters and beginning to cooperate with him in the immediate and the local that's, that's what it means to be a Royal priesthood. And suddenly, you know, we find ourselves just growing more comfortable with ourselves and more comfortable, comfortable with other selves who are not like us, but who have the similar purpose and passion and call them
Speaker 3 00:51:58 In Jewish culture. The blessing of the father to his children is so important. It's crucial. And you just said, when we understand, that's a huge word. When we understand we already have God's blessing. The thought that immediately popped into my mind was then I'm no longer operating in an orphan or a slave mindset. Very good, which now frees me and empowers me to move away from the fear that holds me back. The insecurities that hold me back. The lies that hold me back to now become what he created me to be. So I can do what's in his heart to do, which is to restore the creation. Nice. That's powerful. How many people don't understand, just think about it in a natural worldly thing, how much children long for the blessing of their father and where they don't get their father's blessing or they don't feel they have it. They act out, they do all kinds of things to get their father's attention, to try and get that blessing. I don't want to just quickly move past that or us to understand we already have. And he blessed them. He made them male and female. He blessed them, man. That's powerful. I all ready have God's blessing. So I don't, I can be secure. I can be confident
Speaker 5 00:53:26 He's for me, he's behind me. I can venture out. If I make a mistake, he's not going to cast me aside. He's going to remain faithful to the covenant because I'm his son. Wow. That's, that's powerful. That, that blessed, that concept of blessing while you're talking about it really was making me think. Cause we're, you know, we're talking about like the right, this redemptive plan of God and um, you know, you think of like, well, what was God's intentions? Even with the garden, it was to dwell with his creation. Here you go with them in the midst of him. So then we're, we're sitting here talking about like desiring the blessing, right? My dad even said, you know, how, how we as sons, we long for the blessing of our father and many times I can, I can, I can go back. Whether it's a personal experience, whether it's many that I've talked to and say, what is it?
Speaker 5 00:54:15 Is it a blessing as in like, you have my blessing, right? Like, no, it's my longing for the blessing of your presence to be in my life. Nice. You know? And it started making me think about the whole concept of Emmanuel God with us. You know what I mean? We are a people created for the indwelling, Holy spirit. Like the God would be with us. That's a part of the redemption plan, you know, is that, is that God's with us, you know? And, and it's, we're going after his presence to once. And he is his intention is that his presence would once again, dwell, um, unlimited on, you know, freely with his people. And, and it's that blessing that we, that we attain, you know? Well,
Speaker 1 00:55:02 Wow. That's, that's like I kinda, uh, took down some notes here as we're all kind of sharing. I, I drew this little thought up. So again, trying to speak to the question, how does a man find his purpose? We're all speaking to it. Very brilliantly. I'd say in a lot of ways, um, if you're, uh, each one of us have gifts that are irrevocable from God. So whether you ever come into God's salvation or not, those gifts are from God and they will differentiate you from the next, the person next to you, you'll have your own varied expression of these gifts. And those gifts are what we take into the marketplace. And, and we produce wealth and we produce, you know, God produces the wealth, but it gives us the skill sets to do it. Yes. So that's, I, it all goes back to this and this could actually be an offensive statement to a lot of people.
Speaker 1 00:55:58 Maybe even half the world, it could be offended by the statement. Israel is the purpose of a man. Like the I'll break that down real quick, but if God chose a people and sanctified them set apart, set them apart, which was Israel, his chosen people, he, he sanctified this people so that he could train them how to live upright. You know, if we want to throw our language there, train them how to be godly and live upright. So that the way they lived, they would be like guardians that would sanctify the name of God and set him apart among the nations. So if that's God's, if that's what God's doing from the beginning, we're going back to the ancient origins. I always kind of challenged you guys. If you're just going to try to find your purpose at your table with your Bible open and you're not in a community, and you're just doing this from a singular purpose, like God, I'm praying for what my purpose is.
Speaker 1 00:56:54 I always tell him you're gonna be lacking. If you don't see the bigger picture, what God's doing. And if you're detached from a community, that's what we want. Gray SaaS to actually form into this kind of like national community in your own backyard, where I may not meet everyone that listens. And we all may not meet each other. Maybe we will one day in some way or shape, but it's to do this together to do this in the context of a brotherhood, um, you know, the, the pack of disciples discipleship. So it's kind of like the purpose that God's on is built through Israel. And yes, she was cross his salvation that I'm adopted into seals me into Israel seals to me into this grafted I'm grafted into this tree. And the purpose is there are w when, when my gifting comes into God's salvation and there's redemption and humility and virtue, I can partner with God's plan.
Speaker 1 00:57:51 And that equals divine work. My work becomes divine and that divine work's going to be connected to a priesthood, the duties to everyday believers as a priest under God. And the scriptures are in revelation. I've never forgot this. There's always code. It's kind of like branded in my head, but like it says, he made them a kingdom and priest unto God. So our purpose is vertical. It's all to the father. That was the duty of a priest, right? The father, the father, the father, the temple, the presence. And, and then it says, then they will reign with him in the earth. And so that's what the enemy is really attacking. The enemy is attacking that purpose and identity that we would just be singularly fragmented, broken away from the purpose of God in our own little way, doing our own little thing to stay in your own little world.
Speaker 1 00:58:37 Um, you know, try to figure out your purpose on your own, because I think the purpose of mankind is very difficult for people to figure out. And I don't think the answer is easy to, we can't say it's a one, two, three thing. It's not a microwave answer, but what we're saying is come into the origins, comes in, come into the it's. It's taken me 25 years to even be able to talk about it this way. But yet at the same time, I came in on the ruler of my own ruler, that analogy. And I've been learning as I go and yielding learning from Ken. Ken taught me so many things. He still does. You teach me 14 years now. Right? Like I learned from Ryan, Ryan teaches me things all the time. Like his perspective, his depth, his intensity, you know, I learned from all that. And so what goes into the making of a man's purpose? I think it's simple on the one hand with the answer of God in Israel, and on the other hand, it's like, good luck. Right? Go figure it out, Mr. Mystery.
Speaker 5 00:59:28 Right?
Speaker 1 00:59:30 So can we even answer this question? How smart are we? You answered the question for Kevin. There's no answer to,
Speaker 3 00:59:37 I think the answer is we're pointing people in a direction. You know, God doesn't give us a roadmap. It gives us a compass. He says to Abraham, Abraham, go that way. He didn't say, you know, take a two 94 to 90 and then get off at exit 67. He said, Abraham, go that way. It was, it was a direction. And then as we walk out the direction, the Holy spirit is faithful to unfold the details. And I think there are some big rocks that we're talking about today. When we talk about the mindset is what sets the direction, your mindset determines your direction, determines how you view things, how you see things. And so when your mindset is correct, when you get that biblical mindset, the details will take care of themselves in your pursuit of God.
Speaker 1 01:00:36 Yeah, because I kind of look at like, when I discover what God's doing in the plurality of his people, then my individual expression fits into that context. And I think that's a big missing link. There's so much war against the church and I'm not even saying we're doing church. Right. You know, I mean, I think there's a lot of, that's going to be reformed in these posts COVID or endless COVID days, whatever these turned in, turn out to be. But there's, there's a reformation and I wouldn't claim I run a church. I wouldn't, you know, you weren't a church. I wouldn't claim that we do it perfectly, or even for century, like, you know, but, um, I do know that when I discovered God's purpose in his people, Israel, I can find if I'm, if I'm in tune with that, I'm thinking, that's what he's bringing us into Israel is the light of the world into the Jew first, right then to the Gentile there's there is still an order of honor.
Speaker 1 01:01:29 We're all equal, but there's still a measure of honor, because we want to, you know, we were talking earlier, like the hard work did use did to bring us the Torah, to bring us the Bible, to bring us the scriptures. And then to go back, like you were saying to the dead sea scrolls and go, Oh, you got it. Right. I mean, this is all really good work. So, so I think there's a, there could be an offensive thing, right? Like Israel, the purpose of man, like good luck figuring that out. But, but I think that's kind of says a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 5 01:01:57 I don't, I don't think it's too complicated. I mean, I think that, well, I mean, it is everything's, everything's got this weird tension in it, but you know, I, I look at like the beauty of it. Again, I go back to that Genesis, that creation story, where, where, where we see that God had this intention to dwell in the midst of a people, right. His created people and how we drifted from that and how we got this redemptive story. And then he, he, he chose right. He could've chose anyone, but he chose Israel. Right. He chose Israel for a diff a divine purpose, um, to distinguish himself from every other God and from every other way. And from every other perspective, and then in the beauty and the mystery of Christ, he grafted the Gentiles in, you know, and we became what a part of his people.
Speaker 5 01:02:50 Yes. You know, like it's such an, uh, such a beautiful story that we get to walk out and even going back to it, like, like, I always thought about that, like with Abraham, when, and it's like, it's so frustrating. Right. And when we're trying to quote unquote, discover our purpose or our calling, or, or why has God placed me here as a man? And what is my individual authentic expression of godliness through my expressions and through my divine work in, um, in this world. And, you know, it gets so frustrating because we always have this mindset of arriving somewhere, right. Is like, like we're going to attain something. But even going back to the story of the garden, it's like, we, we realized that God is relational. And so when he gives Abraham a direction and not an end point, it's because he's wanting to have relationship along the way.
Speaker 5 01:03:46 Right. He's like, I'm not here just to get you from point a to point B. That's not my goal. My goal is actually to what be with you to go with you, you know? And, and then, then you get into what, right. That he goes before me, and he's behind me, my rear guard and all this other stuff. But the point of it all to me is that we have to begin to see that that God is about the journey. He's about the relation in the midst of it, of like, he wants to dwell with me. So he's going to be with me and he's going to go with me. And, and I think having that mindset, like, you know, I, I've struggled that with, with, with those concepts throughout my life of just wanting to get to that place. Right. Or just wanting to arrive and, or wanting to attain a certain thing of like, well, when I get here, I'll be this.
Speaker 5 01:04:28 And when I do that, I'll feel this way when that was never, that was never the point in the first place. God was just inviting me into a journey with him to, to build relationship. And I would discover, you know, it's, it's kinda like that beautiful. We've had this talk about, about revelation, right. And, and about the difference between, um, data and die, right. That, that whole concept of, of allowing the word to, uh, bring revelation. And as we gain revelation, we worship, right. Because there's an all in a reverence in it and it creates this beautiful cycle. And I think that that's his whole intention, right. To just be in communion with us as a community. And that's why it's so powerful when we can do it together.
Speaker 1 01:05:12 And I'm looking at you, and I know you, I've watched you live for over 10 years now. And I, you know, I hear you speaking and I, I love hearing you speak cause I can kind of go back through kind of like a little catalog I'm spinning through, in my mind of all these talks we've had and frustration points and like take a moment. If you, if you know, you might not have any, anything that hits you, but I just think about your journey and the tension, because the other thing we wanted to bring into this discussion was like being authentically, you like not losing ourselves in somebody else's label, you know, that, that statement, that quote, I don't know who made the quote. Sure. Somebody's awesome. I've been saying this quote for years, but no, we're all, we're all born originals, but we, you know, so many people in the earth die copies and one of the reasons why you and I have gotten along so well since we're both trailblazer types and there's a huge Akan side of us, there's a huge part of us.
Speaker 1 01:06:12 That's not satisfied every day when we wake up, because that's the creative part. I was like, Oh, we just talk about your pain with that. Your frustrations, like if you don't mind, or if you can think of any, like, you know, I think of like your, your style, right? It's not a typical style. Like your label, like trying to fit into a category, just doesn't work. Like kind of like David putting on Saul's armor, right? Like, you know, you, you, you don't fit anywhere. So what's, you know, how the heck do you live this stuff out? It's it, there's a pain and a beauty and all that. You know,
Speaker 5 01:06:45 I think the simplest way that I can put that journey for me, um, really goes back to a lot of the stuff we've been talking to is, um, growing and the revelation of my son ship of that. I was created with a unique purpose, um, with a unique expression to reveal a unique aspect of the glory of God in the earth. I think that's the best way that I could kind of express that journey for myself is as, um, as I've grown in my identity in my son ship. And as I've learned to accept it, like to accept the way my father has created me to accept the way, um, my father's designed me and to be okay. And to know that I'm fully accepted, you know, like I think that's what, what creates the great chasm between the orphan and the son is that I am I, when, when you walk in sun ship, when you understand the principle of the spirit of adoption and sunshine, we come into this place where I am fully loved, fully accepted.
Speaker 5 01:07:54 Um, just the way I am, you know, and I am in process still, right? Like it doesn't mean I'm right. It doesn't mean I'm wrong. Just I'm in process. I'm, I'm in this relational journey with Christ where he is perfecting me and sanctifying me and cleansing me and, and, and conforming me more into that image of Christ. Right. And his likeness like we were referring to earlier. Um, and, and I just, I think that over the years, I've just began to grow more and more into that. And, and I've had tons of frustrations throughout, but, but, um, my frustrations always to me were always linked to my own expectations of what I thought something should look like. You know? Um, that, that for me has been a really defining thing is that we go into these interpretation modes with Christ, right? Whether it's scripture, the way we, um, you know, we were talking earlier about contextual, like, like, like it's very important that we learn how to read scripture and how then to apply that scripture based on its context.
Speaker 5 01:09:05 Um, because, because outside of that context, and if we begin to pervert our interpretations, we can take on the wrong meaning and then have this wrong, uh, this wrong, um, view or, you know, in the eye of our imagination of what that outcome should be. And then when it's not, we, we fall flat on our face because we, we feel like God, God has failed us. God has, was not faithful to his word. We feel all these different things, or we take it onto ourselves of saying, something's wrong with me. Um, you know, whatever that could be, there's sin in my life, there's this right. We can get into all these crazy things. Um, you know, I think along that journey. So I don't know if that answers the question. Um, but that's, that's kind of some of what I've
Speaker 1 01:09:55 It does. Cause we're asking questions that can't be answered to this exactly right along with the theme today. Um, now I do have a, uh, gear we could shift to, unless you guys have any other thoughts to drop right here, but this goes along with our, our outline.
Speaker 3 01:10:11 The only other thing I was thinking of this whole discussion is, uh, this goes back to mindsets and the difference between Eastern and Western mindset, we live obviously in the Western hemisphere, Western civilization, where we like everything to be neat, tidy, and resolve at the end of 30 minutes, right? The agents never thought that way. The break mindset is not neat, tidy it all resolves. They're good with tensions. And when we look at the story of the Bible, it's a love story. It's God's story, not our story. It's God's story. And it's a love story and love is messy. So even you think about it in that context of how God creates man, man, rebels against God, uh, the one that he loves the most, these poured himself into creating. And, but yet God keeps pursuing us, you know? And, uh, there there's these flashes of brilliance where his people get it and they're so devoted and committed to him and then they fall away and then they're committed and they fall away.
Speaker 3 01:11:23 And, but yet God continues to pursue us. And so love stories are messy stories. And when we're trying to figure all this stuff out, I think allowing room for messiness in our lives, our lives are never going to go the way we thought they were going to go. They're never going to, they're not going to be perfect. The Bible never talks about perfection in that way. Right? Right. You know, this delusion that we've got to live perfect lives know that that's not, that's not a concept that I find in scripture is affection, punishing, no mistakes. You know, God is gracious and merciful right. In the midst of it. And I, and I think if we begin to understand that lives, that life is messy, but we have this direction that we're going in. And I love that, that scripture. And I can't remember exactly where it is, but the righteous man falls seven times, but he keeps getting up again and pursuing its faithfulness. Really? At the end of the age, God's going to judge us on one thing. It's not going to be what the size church we built was, or how many great things it's where you faithful to the call. And the call was to pursue me pursue relationship with me. Did you keep getting up in the midst of your mess and keep running after me overcomes his world. Right.
Speaker 3 01:12:48 And I think you can sum it up too. And that, that concept of like what you were saying with it being a love story, did you learn to love, you know, did you learn to love me or did you grow in love? Like, did you grow in love to your brothers? Did you grow in love to your enemies? Did you grow up? You know what I mean? You go into that whole love story of what he's painting. Like those are, those are, that's a challenge, man. We're going to spend all of you, all of you turning to searching out and gazing upon beholding the man and beholding his beauty. You know, I think you should sing that right now.
Speaker 4 01:13:18 Yeah. I think you should make that a musical. Did you love your brother? Sorry man. That's just the quirky humor we have. Um, well, you know,
Speaker 2 01:13:31 Well, let me give my, my I'm receiving more than I'm giving is it's really a stimulating conversation and was thinking so much about how, how we'd like to be able to take our heart and give it to you. Men who maybe who are, um, you know, you're stumbling along the journey or you don't feel like you have a place at the table, or, you know, you don't feel like you have the support. You have this idea of this intimacy of God is so real. So real. It's almost impossible to explain how he guides our steps. So he creates this call in us to, to, um, Lord show me your ways, how, um, through the, the wrong turns and the right turns, he's there and he's faithful and he's leading in any. And he shows that to us. We all have these stories to tell. And I was thinking about where we started with this idea of worldview.
Speaker 2 01:14:26 The keep in mind that you're battling for that blessing. You have to reach out and take it. You can't let anyone take it from you. We are w co culture is hostile to grace. We've been talking about the, um, the, uh, the lies of the enemy. Don't be deceived. You know, this hostile is not a friend. The, the culture is not as friend of grace. It's not going to nurture that sense of your identity as a son of God, it's not going to cultivate or give you its blessing or affirmation, unless you, unless you bend the knee to its way. Um, you know, it amazes me and pastor Ken you'll you'll in Brian, Ryan, you guys all know this, but so often the, the narrative, the scripture is, is a story half told, right? We know there's a problem, which the problem by the way, came after the father's blessing, the blessing is a creation principle, independent, uh, of, you know, the decisions that we make his orientation, his willingness to bless that that's his character, his steadfast love. We know there's a problem. We know God works. The solution. We call that salvation in all of its many faceted remarkable realities that go into salvation. So we, that problem solution model, but what the one movement that we failed to calibrate is then he takes us as the solution as the solution. And he puts us back amidst the problem.
Speaker 2 01:16:06 And that problem is the context that we inherit on the ruler of life, that we've been talking about. A culture that is separated from God in many ways is hostile to God cannot teach us about God. We have to go back upstream to the text, to the revelation of God, Genesis as a is a touchstone for us. It's a beginning point for us. It's something we continue to circle back around to. This is what, um, this is the salvation work of Jesus, and it's something worth fighting for. We fight for our God. We fight to receive his blessing and we fight to give everything we can. We have
Speaker 1 01:16:54 To those who don't know, that's a good thought on. I have some closing dialogue that we can probably dive into a little bit here. You said the word fight. Yeah. It's and we talked earlier about all the tail mood. The word guardian came out that were guardians of the way kind of like this way of living this lifestyle. So there is a standard, and I think that's one of the problems in culture, especially the Western culture like Ken was talking about is we've watered down the standard and we've called it grace, you know, grace. Oh, it's okay. Just come as you are, don't change. Right. Everyone loves to come as you are, but you don't go as you are, you have to leave different. Um, and, and there's a tension in that. So I kind of thought of my, in my mind, I was like, we've looked back most of this, this talk, and just maybe for a few minutes at the end, we could look forward.
Speaker 1 01:17:49 Because if we look forward to the world, that's coming the full installment of the kingdom that we have full access to here through the spirit of God is going to come and manifest in the natural. Your eye will see it. And, um, that, so we live kind of between, um, the cross we live, we live post cross and pre installment of the world to come. You know, which includes the government, which includes a way of life, which is the way of life we're living now champion now. And the word now, the whole concept of being faithful to me is a huge, um, hint and clue in discovery to a man finding this purpose. My purpose is going to align with faithfulness. And I loved it when I learned it from you guys many, many, many years ago, EMA now, right? You moved out like, it's the one.
Speaker 1 01:18:42 If I do get a tattoo, it's the one word I'll tattoo on my arm. Right? You would not like, cause there just be a great discussion, you know, like what's that. And then it just leads into all kinds of things, but EMA. Now the whole concept of being faithful and how that really describes faith, 90 percentile of its definition is, is just put the word full after it, just to be faithful. And yet she was so for me as a man, I want to learn the text. That's where I'm going to find the heart of God. That's where I'm going to see what God put faithful to some display first. And then he calls us to it. You know, it's that law of the first, I forget the correct terminology of it. But the first mention, right? In scripture, you go back to first use thing and first usage.
Speaker 1 01:19:27 And so when I, when I think of like the coming world, if we're going to look forward, what's my purpose in the world to come. Cause I kind of like this. See if you'd like this one, Jesus fulfilled. The Genesis promised that there would be a battle. So his heals bruised the enemies heads bruised. There's a bruising. There was a battle. So the enemy is now, uh, defeated in, in the world to come. The world that's coming actually is going to have destructive power over darkness. You know, cause we keep the enemy not gone any way, shape or form in my world. It was like, but he's, but he's a weak, he's weakened. His head's bruised. And so I look at it this way. It kind of gets me excited a little bit. Like if I'm supposed to live now as a first fruit of a coming world, then the enemy and the people that experienced my life, the enemy shouldn't just be experienced, the bruised, the defeat of the cross.
Speaker 1 01:20:23 He should be already starting to taste the destruction of a company world that power of the Holy spirit in us to live upright. And to actually overcome this world, he should be experienced a whole new Wolf. There's a whole new measure coming at me, you know, like in this people that are being raised up and you know, that's the concept of, you know, the guardians is that we are, you know, we're part of a people that we're part of an answer when the skeptic says, well, where was God when all these things happened and God Dwight taught that so brilliantly that God will respond. I was fashioning the people. And so I think we've looked back a lot to find our purpose, but looking forward, I can see how my purpose fits even bring heaven into the earth, by the way I live it, it was all about lifestyle profaning. The name was about lifestyle. You could profane them in your lifestyle or Halloween. The name was about how you lived. So there you go. That's a quick little wrap-up right. It's a whole nother podcast, but yeah,
Speaker 2 01:21:24 Yeah, it is because you're, you're, you're, you know, you're right around Jesus, his favorite word kingdom. Now you're talking about kingdom, come, we'll be done here and now, you know, and, and w one, one thing I think it's important. I love how you're bringing heaven or the fullness of new creation into the now. Right? Because that is, uh, that's really key to understand that our lives, our lives, our lives are not on hold till heaven. Right. Right. Well, God's not looking to take us up. He's looking for places to come down.
Speaker 1 01:22:05 Well, okay. I mean, he comes down in Genesis, right? He comes down and by the way, the tent of meeting comes down, the downward action, you know, Pentecost Jesus first. And then at the end of the book is coming down. Yeah. Yeah. We keep thinking, we're getting out of here.
Speaker 2 01:22:24 You're not, you heavens new earth, you know? Um, beautiful.
Speaker 1 01:22:30 Anything else, gentlemen? We'll probably break this down into two podcasts because it's more three or three. Like maybe you segment this out a little bit. Sorry. Part one part two part three. Um, any other thoughts or did we w what about what's on there to recover? Anything else we could throw on there? We could make part four. I think we covered a lot of the stuff. Um, unless you wanted to talk a little bit, but I think it's just a whole nother podcast. And the other thing is the critical thinking skills, but it wraps up the whole thing. We didn't specifically speak to that, but I think it's inherent in everything we've been talking about. I think it's there.
Speaker 1 01:23:16 All right. Cool. Well, it's an honor to be here today with you guys honored to be in your backyard, James. Hey, you know, what's funny because Ryan, Evan always talks about Ryan and I are the co-founders of gray SOPs and he always talks about, and I'm always kind of the vision, you know, vision go over the nation. And he was like, yeah, but we got to build it off of the backyards. And here we are. Boom. That's awesome. So this is the template for where lady stops groups meet in the backyard and discuss the Bible. It's really amazing to be with all you guys. I love each one of you very dearly, and I can't even tell you what Dayton Ohio means to me all these years and indebted to all your teachings. So go out and build your band of brothers. Engage the gray SOPs culture. Find us on social media, grease ups, two 12, share this podcast with somebody subscribed to it. And until next time live upright.
