Speaker 0 00:00:07 Hey, welcome back to the grease house podcast. Brian Phillips with you here today, you've got a powerful episode lined up with one of my great friends and mentors and somebody who's really changed my life very dramatically. We're going to talk today about understanding wrath so we can actually live upright and walk in honor. So it's a big, big, complex topic. And, you know, I brought kind of a someone in that I know is awesome at taking us through the biblical narrative. So we're in for an amazing episode, but before we get into that today, I just want to say thanks to everyone who's coming into the grease ops culture, culture, and partnering with us. And right now the only marketing we have in place is grassroots marketing. So we're still working on some fundamental foundational pieces and the grease ops culture. And so we really depend on people just kind of sharing the podcast, sharing the website, the different pieces of our culture, buying gear, and actually coming to our events that we're starting to have now across the country.
Speaker 0 00:01:11 So if you're interested in partnering with us financially, some people are doing that as well. And it's very encouraging when that happens. Or you can check out the
[email protected] slash partner. And then also if you want to check out, uh, we got a big event coming up, uh, grease ops advance in Kansas city on October 1st and second at the international house of prayer. We'd love to have you there. And again, it's going to be a very powerful time of encountering the heart of God, Ryan, Evan, who leads our worship. And who's my partner in grease ops. This guy, man, at our last advance, my wife was a, I've shared this a couple of times, but I was talking to my wife afterwards and she said, how did it go? And this was the Friday night opening night. And I said, well, Ryan and the team tore the whole building down in worship.
Speaker 0 00:01:54 I mean, it was just amazing just to, it just was like, heaven just came right into the room. And then you were in a room full of just filled with men. And it's a very powerful experience and you will encounter God. That's why we're doing the advance. We didn't call it a retreat because we want you to advance. And so, um, we're, uh, we're looking forward to this in Kansas city. You can learn more about it at gray sops.net/casey. We'd love to have you there, if you can, uh, fly into Casey, uh, let us get connected with us there. All right, moving into our episode. I want to, uh, introduce James Whitman. He's the president of JC studies, which is, uh, the center for Judaic studies. I found JC studies, I don't know, 12, 13 years ago now, maybe a little longer. And I B I started to become friends with, with James as he was kind of the apprentice to Dwight prior.
Speaker 0 00:02:45 And, you know, just to stay, just to say in short, I was just a young punk back then. Uh, didn't really know what I was doing, operating in my gifts and skill sets. Uh, didn't really understand the Bible. I was an evangelist. I had 10 titles in message, maybe two messages and eight titles or something like that. But when it, God called me to plant a church, I was like, man, I don't, I don't really don't know the Bible like I ought to. Um, and I didn't feel bad about that. I was just hungry. I was just like, man, I just want to go after. So I, God led me to JC studies and Dwight Pryor and James Whitman. And so I go down to this group of like scholars to get smart. And actually what I found was wholeness. I found Sabbath, I found, um, way more powerful, larger biblical narrative than I'd ever considered. And, uh, from Genesis to revelation and just, just the stuff that you guys have been producing, you're a massive resource. And I want to use everything in my, my world that God's called me to, to connect you guys to everything I'm connected to. So with that said, James Whitman, welcome to the podcast. It's it is an honor to have you here today. Brian,
Speaker 1 00:03:57 My friend, pastor, brother, colleague, always a delight. Love your topic by the way.
Speaker 0 00:04:06 Yeah, I kind of, you would. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the simple goals of our, of our episode today is that take the complexity of God's wrath so that we, we want to look at it. We want to look at it and kind of let it bring sobriety into our hearts. We want to be sober-minded on the topic of wrath. We don't want to be passing by it too quick, or even theologically checking the box. Um, Francis Chan has a new book out called until unity and I just started going through it. And in his, he just brings a challenge that really, uh, he said, we don't want to just know the Bible. We want to own, we want to possess the Bible. He's like, we actually want to, he was, it's one thing to say, we theologically know something quickly pass by it. And obviously I've felt this way for many years.
Speaker 0 00:04:56 I mean, but it was just a really good, fresh way of hearing it when I was going through his audio book. And I thought, that's what we need on the wrath of God. We need, we need to own it. We don't want to just stuff it away. We don't want to misunderstand it. It's just an old Testament thing. I mean, you know, so the simplicity of our episode is just understanding rats. So we can walk in a sober heart before God that we could walk tender before him and understand that wrath serves a massive purpose in redemption. And when we see it, we actually can walk in greet joy and give God the honor that he's worthy of and that he's due. And so really that's the goal. It's like, let's look at wrath, not ignore it and let's extract out the power that it has because if you're looking at positive and negatives, wrath would probably most likely in most people's categories go in a negative category and still James is here today to kind of help help us navigate this topic. And in, in kind of take us on a journey together today. So, James, um, I surrender this to you here for a while that you get it started
Speaker 1 00:06:01 Well, Brian, I love the fact that we're doing this in conversation because we're two are gathered in his name. There he is. And for those of you that are tuning into this podcast, you're a part two or more. Um, we are kingdom people gathered for the purposes of, um, worship and to do the good works we were prepared in advance to do so. It isn't, it's a community dynamic. And it makes me think of, I wasn't a small group, just a couple of nights ago and great conversation. One of the gentlemen and a very well-educated, um, physician said, well, you tell us because you're the pastor and you know that stuff. And we don't, and I'm very challenged by that statement, Brian, because as you articulated and it gave, it gave a great voice to your own witness, your own growth, your own maturity, and this idea of knowing God, it is in the new covenant that we all know him and that word, their course is a, it's an, a word of intimacy.
Speaker 1 00:07:06 It's the word that's used for sexual relations between Adam and Eve. God wants to, he's doing all the heavy lifting to be known and he wants to know us. Um, so there is this ownership, there is this depth, this dimension, but it is for all believers. Um, and so at GC studies, we, we have a couple of passions, Brian, uh, as you very well know, the first is we want every believer to start thinking like a servant leader. I like to say it like this in the kingdom, every sheep becomes a shepherd and we were, we're always on four legs before the father in a position of worship, but we're on two legs as we face the world, a position of authority or a Royal priesthood, if you will. And that authority is for the same purpose of helping people know the one, true God.
Speaker 1 00:08:02 So even in this discussion and we'll get re we'll dig right in. But I want all of us to think like servant leaders were in the counsel of the most high were, we're getting his counsel. He's looking for us to accurately represent him, um, on, in our network and in our local settings and in our homes, in our faith communities. One thing I have found, Brian, that really helps us think like a servant leader and own the text that's been given to us, even as we wrestle with it is if you're going to think biblically, you have to think with two hands, you have to be able to say on the one hand, let's give an example. God is transcendent. On the other hand, God is imminent, right? It's not a matter of which one is he. And it's not a matter of at one time.
Speaker 1 00:09:00 He's one in one time. He's the other. He is both with us and high and lifted up. And so when we begin to think through the text, we're going to come into places where we were not really permitted to think in just a singular linear way, um, there, and let's go right to the subject. The Psalmus says, so this is the understanding of Israel and Israel's chosen son, the Messiah, Jesus, here's the understanding of Jesus in the early church. God is merciful and God is just, it's a picture from the Psalm that over the holy of Holies, the Ark of the covenant and the mercy seat, there are two Saraf bending in towards the mercy seat. Uh, the, and their wings touch justice and mercy is God just, yes, he is, is immersible. Yes, he is. Well, which is it, it's both at the same time.
Speaker 1 00:10:01 So to think biblically, we need to think with two hands, we need to think in terms of the wage maturing us and the way we communicate it's maturing others. Um, we don't get to just rat in the kingdom of heaven or in the world we're embassador. And that requires tact that requires understanding, but we do all of these things in community. So, um, and then the last principle that we really really emphasize at JC studies is to connect the testaments because in Jesus's mind, they were not disconnected. Um, he said, what I see the father do I do what I hear the father say? I say, so even when it comes to the subject of wrath and any biblical subject, we actually need to start with the Jesus. We cannot improve on God's final word. And that word is a word that's in enfleshed. It's incarnated.
Speaker 1 00:11:00 It's lived out in our, right before our eyes. What that means to me, Brian is most times wrath, you know, is going to be take its cues from the old Testament. True. Yeah. And not that it's not found in the new, but it's going to take its cues from it in Jesus. We seek the father. Therefore, everything we see in the old Testament is, is, um, co coherent with Jesus. It really is. Um, and when we see the father act, he's act in the old Testament, he's acting like Jesus. It's just in veiled, in, in ancient culture and language. We don't understand and contexts that we tend to.
Speaker 0 00:11:45 Yeah. I was kind of sitting here thinking that when you were doing, uh, justice and mercy, um, it's kind of like a healthy parent, right? Like a healthy father is going to have justice when their kids are out of line. And when they, you know, when they're in times of need there, he's going to have the heart of mercy, you know? But his justice actually is mercy, right? Oh, mine is. His mercy is just as, just at those times, it's like, it's, it's hard to tell you understand where it cuts off.
Speaker 1 00:12:19 And his anger is not retribution. It's restorative
Speaker 0 00:12:23 Restore. Yeah. There's always a healing ointment base healings power. There's a, it's that way out. It's like, I'm coming to bring my wrath so that you can escape this
Speaker 1 00:12:35 And like a good parent. If he didn't say what is harmful, uh, we wouldn't know. And if we didn't experience the harm attached to something harmful, we, we would be, we'd be stuck. So absolutely. And, and Brian here, here's, this goes right to the heart of the matter. I let you kick the tires on this any more I've really taken to. Um, first of all, I love your parenting example. That's right out of the page of arcane, you know, you being corrupt parents, how much, you know, how much good do you do? How much more of the father. Right? Um, so on the one hand that parenting illustration is really powerful and it's, it's viable. On the other hand, God is holy. And if I might just for a moment and brothers, listen to me on this holiness, biblically speaking, before it gets into a category of ethics, right?
Speaker 1 00:13:36 And wrong moral purity before it is in the category of what theologians call ontology it's being. It's the only way that the holy one describes himself in, in, in a tried stated way. Holy holy, holy is the Lord. God almighty the run. That's a revelation from Genesis to revelation. What does that mean? It means he is unlike anything we can think or imagine by virtue of being he is, other than this whole journey starts out in humility. And it starts out with a listening posture, going back to your testimony. I I'm you honest, I don't know the word like I should. I came out of seminary. I didn't know me. I didn't know the word. I was skimming the surface and that's so many people's experience. But when I came to the place where I understood he's revealing himself, he must reveal himself or I cannot understand.
Speaker 1 00:14:46 And the way he reveals himself is in the narrative of the Bible and he's telling his story. And so even things like anger and wrath and honor how they work is what, when we traced the steps and we see him acting, it's not so much something we can abstract like a systematic theological, you know, let's just talk about let's watch and see what he is like. And that rounds out the parenting analogy, right? Because every decision he makes comes from a heart of cassette or grace, we would say in the new covenant, it comes from a heart of grace. It is meant to, for the best of everybody, regardless of what people say about, um, what's going on, it's behind it all. Is this benevolent, holy being that has the best interest of every human being at heart.
Speaker 0 00:15:49 Yeah. And he's dealing with the gods of Egypt in the counsel of the unseen realms, right? Like he's, you know, as Michael Heizer would kind of put it out there, you know, there's this, uh, and you know, wrath kind of comes into those concepts of how God deals and how he gets us, you know, every wedding I do. I, uh, I always highlight the bride and how she thought about this day, her whole life and how she, you know, thought about this dress for many months and, you know, spent a small fortune on the dress and you know, how she came here today and he spent hours and hours and even days to get ready. And I just think about that's the same passion and posture we need to have of this day. We need to be looking forward to the day and the day is now.
Speaker 0 00:16:40 And we need to be dressed in white clothes and spotless and you know, no wrinkles and without blemish and cry. And like you said, God's already provided all that. But when I understand his wrath and his rats serves a great purpose in history and even now in our current culture. Yes. And that's the hard part is, is a lot of everybody when, when people think that when they think of grace and this is something I learned from you, you know, that there is law and grace and there's grace in law, you know, and, and, um, that's, that's something that's in this day and age, it's harder for people to grasp and understand. So I like the idea of how, when I really get in tune with like, understanding the purpose of God's wrath, even if I could even understand it, I mean, like you said, it's beyond us, but it motivates me to understand, to know him in his holiness and motivates me to honor him in my life and let him heal me to let him heal my wounds and let him blot out my transgressions, you know, let him be my father and, and re cause if grace is really all powerful and mighty, if the holy spirit really is living in us, then we should be able to conquer anything that we come up against from, from darkness.
Speaker 0 00:17:59 You know, now perfect. Now, if we're trying to be perfect, that's a nice, amen. Right. But we carry pain inside of us. And so when, when those pains get triggered, it's, you know, I I'm getting complex I guess. But, um, you know, we get, we get triggered in these states and we need that inner healing. You know, we also, we need both, you know, we need, but it leads us to be overcomers. It leads us to be like Christ and to overcome this world. So I don't want to say amen to it so fast. Cause I did that for 20 years. And then I ran into myself and went, wait a minute. Um, it didn't work this time. Didn't work that time, you know, and give you a list of the times I screwed it up. Um, so I, I love the concept of what we're getting into here, Greece and wrath, so I can live a life.
Speaker 1 00:18:47 And I love the way, uh, grace ops emphasizes the training that goes with grace. So Brian, I want to do, I do want to probe out that the psychological issue for just a moment, because, um, I think in my pastoral experience, I'm sure it's mirrored or nears and guys, maybe right now we look in the mirror, the typic, the tendency is to think of the God of the old Testament as an angry God and that Jesus, somehow with his death, assuages, God's anger and he's now happy in the new Testament. But again, if we're thinking with two hands, we quickly recognize, well, wait a second, we just, we just violated the person of the holy, because the one who says he's the same yesterday, today and forever, that's our creed. And I have seen part of the pain that people carry around is they're conflicted in their, their psychology about God, Jesus reconciles us with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Speaker 1 00:20:00 Most people are comfortable with Jesus, right? What they have, or they have a problem with the one they're reconciled to. And it's because of a mis-characterization that is placed on the old Testament. So let me talk about that for just a moment, because that's a big statement and I need to back it up a bit first. Let's just look at the first creation picture, Adam and Eve transgress, and they experience, um, the effects of sin and the separation from God. Now that's an important idea. We separate ourselves from God, whether knowingly or unknowingly, and oftentimes in pulpits, it's preached that we're cursed that God curses us. But reading of the text rejects that he didn't curse Adam and Eve, they, as a result of their sin, they couldn't stay in that state and eat from the tree of, um, uh, you know, the, of, of life, right?
Speaker 1 00:21:08 So he puts him outside of the garden. He bars the gates, but the next picture is he's right there with them. He went into exile with them, same picture with Israel. And I really want to touch on this, but when they go into exile, who's there with them and exile who brings them back, who sets the stage for his presence coming. This is what God's like. So when we look at the paradigm of salvation in the new Testament, we read, need to realize it comes right out of the old Exodus from Egypt is the paradigm of being saved by grace, through faith. God made a promise.
Speaker 0 00:21:47 It's the greatest story in the Bible. It is the
Speaker 1 00:21:50 Greatest story in the Bible, reenacted by Jesus who dies at Passover. And inaugurates a new Exodus. It was by, it was by promise. It was promised that God acted on it was hearing their cries. It was him coming in and overthrowing evil and leading them out. That was stage one, but he didn't just leave him in the wilderness. He led them to his presence at Mount Sinai. They were saved by grace, Brian, nothing they could add to it, period. There's no legalism in the old Testament. We are the legalist. We are the ones who try to put things between us and God so that we don't have the responsibility of walking this out. But what happened right there at Sinai, the training part of grace was revealed and it's exact, and the promised land was where they were headed. Same thing, death of Jesus, resurrection, spirit filling. Now we're being trained by the spirit of grace.
Speaker 0 00:22:59 And even in that story, you see God using wrath and the plagues, you see him using wrath and he's dealing with the gods of Egypt. Like he promised he would, but even the way God's dealing with Pharaoh, he's trying to redeem them. Absolutely. He's he's showing him, Hey, you think you're the king of Kings? And you're actually dealing with the sovereign king of Kings. And, um, you know, he's even in that wrath put on display to Egypt, God's mercy. He still had exit ramps where you could get out of it. You know, Pharaoh had so many chances where he could have turned, he could have done the right thing. He, he, wasn't just an isolated and just killed, like, you know, that's kind of the old Testament picture because, you know, you can take that template of the story and overlay it over the book of revelation, right? Like of what we might see, whatever view people have a revelation where there's happened or happening or going to happen. But you can see that in the storyline of revelation, that these bowls of wrath and that type of stuff is going to it's a lot light again, Exodus. Right? So a lot like the foundational story that God gives to help us understand who he is.
Speaker 1 00:24:13 Absolutely incredibly all inspiring because not only to Pharaoh, but to the Egyptians. And so we read that he many Egyptians came out of Egypt with the chosen people. They hold their wagon to that wagon train because they heard, um, the, the one true God and realized that he wanted to show them mercy. And that's so powerfully true, Brian. And I believe in that and I want, I want to be specific, but, um, I just feel this in me. And I think this must be for some that are listening. You mentioned that brokenness we have inside, right? I believe that the angry God distortion, which oftentimes is, um, is, comes from the pulpit relentlessly week in and week out is not from heaven. It's a worldly distortion at best. It's a demonic distortion at its worse. And here's why when we look at anger, wrath, right, we have to kind of, those are two separate things. Anger. God gets angry in the Bible. And in that angry is constantly telling why what's wrong. What people need to do. He has hopes they'll change. He sends them profits. He sends them priests. He sends his word anger. Raff is when God's anger reaches a point where, all right, no more, I'm stopping this. I'm shutting it down. It does more harm
Speaker 0 00:25:57 Than good. Yeah, it's an art. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:26:01 Now that's really important that arc of the narrative, Brian, because if we look at the Bible, we recognize that anger is not the primary motif. Wrath is not the primary motif. As a matter of fact, the surprising thing to UCS Lewis's language is the grace of God, the long suffering, the never ending pursuing passion whereby he just won't allow us to go our own way. He just, he, he, so my point is this. If look at some 1500 years of Israel's life, we collapse it in the old Testament. And all we hear is the profits towards the end, getting ready for exile saying, look, it he's been doing all along. He's been saying, and now the cup of his rap is getting full. And we see the 10 tribes go into exile, followed by the, um, the Southern tribes go into exile. But again, we see God go with them.
Speaker 1 00:27:12 Now here's my larger point, Brian. Um, the anger of God is meant for us when we tune into it. And we see it's a holy anger and it comes from a heart of grace. Then we want, then we start to say, you know what, not, I'm afraid of him being angry at me. That's not biblical fear of the Lord. We start to say, I don't want to disappoint him. I want to walk the way he walks. I want the plan he has for my life. Now we're thinking like leaders, we're fear of grieving the spirit and losing the presence. When the anger of God is manifest in the old Testament. When we see these angry passages and he's upfront, he tells us I'm getting angry,
Speaker 0 00:28:06 Angry that
Speaker 1 00:28:10 We, uh, the, the people who care are saying, please don't withdraw your presence. David Psalm 51, right? Because the anger of God causes him to withdraw his presence, leaving us to our own devices. And that's frightening.
Speaker 0 00:28:27 And David saw that in Saul. He did. And he's like, don't, don't do that to me. Brilliant, Brian,
Speaker 1 00:28:35 That's a brilliant, uh, that connection, I don't think is made all the time. David sought concretely and he said,
Speaker 0 00:28:42 I don't want, yeah, he had a front row seat to that stuff, man.
Speaker 1 00:28:46 It caused him to repent and repent of a deed he had done, you know, um,
Speaker 0 00:28:53 And got it and got busted. I love that part. He didn't tell you that himself.
Speaker 1 00:28:57 Hi there too, because there's a good parent. They bust their kids, you know,
