Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:05 No, and I love how you've highlighted the fact of, you know, we've highlighted, dealing with pain, you know, that comes from distortion. Yes. Um, when I gave my life to Christ some 25 years ago, I personally didn't struggle with what I've heard. A lot of people say they struggle with when they, when I thought of God as father, I didn't really look at my own dad as much. I was like, he's just a man. I'm like, I can't, he can't be like a barrier between me and God. Like, I've got to understand God, that's just a metaphor. He's like my father, you know, and, or it's a good it's, he's pulling me into this storyline, but this is all important to me because it feels like in our current day culture and we just literally in the news, whenever you're actually listening to this podcast in our current news, you know, we just came out of Afghanistan and did it in the most terrible way.
Speaker 1 00:01:03 And you know, some of the weird leadership, you know, evil moorings of our current leadership in our country. Um, not that any side has it nailed, but, um, it feels like we could be moving into exile in a lot of ways. Like the landscape of our world is changing so rapidly, fast. It feels like it could be in the, in what I'm loving in this here is like, if that happens, I'm going to go with you. You know, the next picture of our lives is that God's going to go with us. And there's so many things in our current culture. Cause you know, you've labored in church culture. I've labored in it. Um, you know, a couple of decades, it's difficult work. I just wrote about that on Facebook today, it's difficult work. I'm like, don't pray for your leaders, unite with them. Yeah. I don't need you to pray for me.
Speaker 1 00:01:57 I need you to come lift my hands and work with me and take, take on 10 task and you know, whatever. Like what do you need? What needs to be done? You know, let's uh, cause you know, so that, and that's one of the pain points I wanted to bring into this conversation. Um, and we can maybe touch on it later. But the concept of when you look at Christianity and you look at how we come out of a Jewish, you know, Jewish Messiah, Jewish storyline, God sanctified Israel so that they could sanctify him in this powerful story of holiness in God. And then he transfers that holiness into his people. And then we're supposed to be this light that shines in the midst of a dark world. You've got all these things going on and it matters for me because I want, I want to, um, you know, I want to live as a sanctified people and I ha I want to actually walk with God.
Speaker 1 00:02:52 And so understanding his wrath in, in bringing that into my own heart and experiences current day, the pain point of our church culture that when you take like, uh, the three streams of Orthodox Judaism is like, what is it like reform? Um, and then there's another one, but, and then you look at like what the Gentiles have done with the all loving, all peaceful, all unifying Messiah. And we've got like 45,000, maybe 50,000 by now. Cause these are old stats, 50,000 divisions. I mean, we can't get along. We can't even agree to disagree or agree. We can't, we just can't do it. It's like insane. It's like, and I feel that in me, it's like, I'm, I'm guilty of it too. I'm not like innocent in that area. I'm like, my pride has gotten in the way or my willingness to want to be right.
Speaker 1 00:03:46 Or, you know, peanut on theology. I mean, dude, it's wicked. And I don't know, I bring all this up because I think God's wrath actually is against that. Yeah. It's against that pride of being right. And it's something I'm personally probably guilty of. And I want, that's why I want this episode to be like something that we're not just talking. Oh, that was a neat topic. Those guys, you know, they had a great conversation. No, I want to bring this right down into the nitty gritty and go, let's look at what God's wrath is, you know? And then where's it actually in our lives, what's in our lives right now where his wrath is like I'm coming after that.
Speaker 2 00:04:25 Yeah. And maybe Brian for the sake of, um, language, right? Because I think the Bible does make a bit of a distinction between anger and wrath, meaning anger that builds until the God makes a decision
Speaker 1 00:04:41 And there's a long suffering. His anger is laced.
Speaker 2 00:04:45 So if it's a holy anger, right? He can, he, he, this divine being, as we see in Jesus can express anger, even towards his people in a way that is redemptive and causes them to change. And that perhaps is the best discernment we have on whether we are really weighing, is this God's anger? Or is this an accusation from the enemy? Is it conviction? Whereas God says, I hate this thing. And here's why it destroys you. It destroys everybody in your circle of influence. It destroys my witness in the world. Well then his anger is an opportunity for us to, to draw near in repentance, turned from it, turn towards him. And so yes, his holy anger is a part of our knowing. God, it's important for us to recognize he's not characterized by being angry. Um, because his anger is not like ours. Our anger comes and goes, it's an emotion. It is usually because we've been violated our, our incredible sense of self, our soul centric or, you know, our limit way of viewing things. Somehow it's been transgressed by another, right? We're not getting what we want says James or somebody did something to us. And so we get provoked. We get angry and we act the rationally.
Speaker 2 00:06:22 It's immaturity. No question, no question, brother. If you're brothers, if you're out there and you're dealing with an anger problem, you need to hear in Jesus name, the call to grow up because uncontrolled anger is a sign of immaturity. Um, and you need to take a page out of your, your, your father's playbook. My wife was reading the tea to me from Colossians today, NT Wright's translation. And he said, um, be ready to handle anything. What's kind of a great little phrase. I don't know what the verse was, but the way he translated it was, you know, kind of want to Paul's exhortations. He said, be ready to handle anything. I mean, look at you forgive, because you've been forgiven. You understand how grace operates and if you have experienced God's displeasure and you've been reconciled to him, then how much more do we understand?
Speaker 2 00:07:15 Hey, people don't think alike. They come from different places. We need to, we need to understand them and even help them understand the anger points in their life. That gun might be putting a finger on. Um, you don't Brian. I might even say it like this. And again, I don't mind guys, you could, you can write, write us and challenge this. But as I see Jesus and body of the father, and I see him frustrated with the disciples, I see them, you know, sometimes shut them down. Sometimes you just like, oh, Hey, what am I going to do with you guys? You're narrow. You're just a little fate. She just don't get it. But he keeps, he keeps at it with them, right? Um, yeah. God knew what he was getting into. When he inaugurate, when he initiated a relationship with us, he's not surprised by anything.
Speaker 2 00:08:07 This is how we beat the enemy when he says, oh, you, why don't you go? Yeah, that's true. And it's even worse than, you know, and my father's got it in hand. I don't think, you know, necessarily we do something wrong. God gets angry spontaneously. I think when he comes to us and says, let's go back to the David illustration. Hey, I saw that. I heard that it's destructive. You need to turn from it. Think anger comes when we go. I don't really see it that way. They know they did it first or I've seen someone else do it. Then I think you're starting to provoke him. And what, what does he do? Biblically with bras his presence, a pit, and should be the point we're going. Okay. Okay. Okay. You're right. I'm wrong. You know, um, that's a powerful father, son relationship to have, because then you go out and you act like a man you're aware of the relationships around you, the pain of the people around you, why they do what they're do.
Speaker 2 00:09:15 And wouldn't this be amazing pastor Brian. And I know you're raising this up in your congregation, but you had a congregation of men, women too, but we're speaking to men who were so mature. They could go to a brother, put their arm around them and say, you know, I love you. Right. And I just heard what you said to your wife. That's in a way to talk to a lady. That's my way to talk to a daughter of the most high God. You're you become over familiar. You're taking on, uh, unacceptable, uh, liberties with the relationship that's closest to you. You need to get that right, man. And you need to get it right now. You want let's pray together. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:09:57 And I'm here for you. I, and I love you. And could you imagine
Speaker 2 00:10:00 The bow, the unity of the body of Christ that you're, you're passionate for? And I would say we misread the new Testament. We don't realize how powerful unity is not unity at any cost. Right. But unity around, we are disciples of Jesus. He's the master, we're the servant. We're the slave. He's the king, we're the subject. He's the father, we're the child. Um, we're all unified around that. And so much of what, um, so much of what divides us is secondary to God. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:10:36 Yeah. And we make it the primary thing and we can't get past it. Yeah. I like the, the feeling of, you know, understanding the different, pulling the language apart, anger and wrath. That's very helpful. Um, and I really it's something I've had to grow in my own life. Cause, you know, in church culture, there's these extremes, you know, and we have to be careful because on the one hand you can become extremely religious. Yes. And, uh, you know, I found that religion is way more, the priorities in religion is more, uh, perfection and no grace on yourself. And uh, you know, actually the enemy will use religion to keep you in a cycle of shame and guilt, you know, whereas, uh, we're, I'm really a son of the living God. So I had to kind of break free from religion a long time ago and go, man, I, I really am terrible at this performance.
Speaker 1 00:11:31 I mean, I I'm a go getter. I'm actually really good at performing and doing that, but I don't want to do that in my relationship with God. I don't want to, uh, I don't want to be a slave to just perfection and just, you know, this raw disconnected, just I can do this in my own strength. And my get my vein in my head to pop enough. I can pull myself out of any, you know, cause I'll tell you I'll be really vulnerable with you as an entrepreneur type because that's what God told me in 2003, when I was in business on my way to be in very successful in the business world, God said, because I had a prayer time and I said, Lord, I feel like I'm using my gifts, but I don't, I don't personally feel like this is divine. And God told me very specifically, I've never forgotten it.
Speaker 1 00:12:12 And he said, well, I made you, I created you to be an entrepreneur for the church, not the marketplace. And so that got me back into the church culture. And you know, I use that language very strategically and we didn't really have time to go into why I do all that, but probably on the most vulnerable things. Cause I S I planted a church. I'm really know I've been hearing from God, right? I've been everybody's enemy and everybody's friend. I know the ups and downs and the pitfalls I've, I've been called about everything you can be called. I mean, I've lost all my money. Um, I've gone. I went through four years of not even knowing how I pay a mortgage payment. You know, the number one vulnerability I have in my own heart, even now in this hour. And it's, it's, I think it's a little bit of that tough guy in me still, you know, but I have this thing that goes off and it says, no, one's coming to save you, man.
Speaker 1 00:13:06 You got to do, you gotta, you know, you've gotta be strong. I mean, I do, I, I might be wrong, but I believe there's a truth in that though. There's still, you know, no one's going to come and save me in ways that, uh, you know, maybe I would paint the picture, but, um, but at the same time, that's a dangerous thought because it can separate me from trusting God. It can separate me from the vulnerability I need to have in him. And you know, so I think bringing all of these little subject matters up in, in using the backdrop of God's anger and God's wrath is very powerful because, uh, he is so kind to us and I've had to learn these things and that's, that's done number one of the number one weak spots inside of me is like, no, one's coming to save you, bro.
Speaker 1 00:13:52 You better pull yourself up by the bootstraps and be a man and go out, you know, get moving because I've had a lot of people get mad at me and leave and you know, you think, oh, that could affect the church this way or that way. And it's hard work. You know, I, I'm trying to tell, I'm trying to express that more and more clearly to people like I didn't sign up for this. God called me into it. Right. So it's like, I didn't, you know, my dad, wasn't some prominent person in, in, uh, the fierce sickle a world, you know? And then he handed me his Baton. No, I I'm just a little, nobody from a no-name town in a no-name place that God said, Hey, go do this. And I'm like, sometimes God's people are real hard to deal with. And so, yes,
Speaker 2 00:14:37 And that's an important subject with when it comes to anger and wrath, right? Because judgment starts with the household of faith. I do want to not miss the opportunity to say, Brian, you don't need this from me because he's confirmed his word to you over and over. But why really affirm that word because I'm a church history buff and the best of the best of our tradition has been entrepreneurs. It really has been that are able to think outside of the ecclesiastical box and, and get a hold of the text, let the techs get hold of them and live the parable of the talents where it's the father's large S and we're just simply putting it to work for the kingdom without a care in the world. Why remember, remember all of this, sorry guys for talking quick, but it's stirs me. There was one of those stewards who buried it, right.
Speaker 2 00:15:30 Gave into that fear and insecurity, which are part and parcel of being human. It's okay to be insecure. We just bring that to the one who is our foundation to be afraid of what, you know, uh, um, what life can do to you. We just bring that to the one who gives us Shalom and peace, but that one steward buried it and he had the audacity and I give him credit for this. It's saying, I knew you were a hard man. Then you reaped where you didn't. So, and I thought, man, I better at least be able to give the original amount back to him. And he, the statement of the steward says, or the, the owner says, okay, that's who I am to you. Then I'm a hard man that you knew that I reap where I do not. So, and you should have known better. It's great. If you were scared of me, you still should have put it to work.
Speaker 2 00:16:35 There are a lot of people laboring under fear, psychologically that are doing good work for Jesus. And we would want, we would want to bring comfort to them cause they're afflicted in a non-biblical way, but it's, it's that it's that can-do spirit. It's that come on, let's do it. It's our generation. I think what's happening in the world today gives us an opportunity. I always remember this story about, um, Abraham Lincoln. He wrote in his journal in his Kentucky log cabin as a teenager, um, he was reflecting on the revolution and his heroes and he replied that there was no more great work to be done. Wow. Right? Well, there was a heart that wanted to do great work and that was poised for the opportunity. And the moment I think our culture over the last 50 years has been so affluent, the church has been so one with the, um, the prevailing political culture that, um, we, we just think value.
Speaker 2 00:17:33 You know, we kind of spiritualized the work in the four walls and say, there's nothing really great left to be done. Nothing could be further from the truth. And that's what you're calling men too. And I respect that you and your leadership team so much for that, um, there are great works to be done. The father has given us a <inaudible> and he said, not only that he says, I'll teach you how to use my resources for entrepreneurial exercises. It's we have a seat at his table, men, he's saying, what do you think? What do you think we can do? Right? How can we make a difference here? Um, this is, this is the opposite of the anchor of God. Is these good favor? And what do we do? We honor him by walking in that good favor. This is the side of the equation he wants us on.
Speaker 2 00:18:26 Um, you know, Brian, this is, uh, not me, it's a classic statement, but I think that it is so perfect for this two hands. When it comes to thinking about God's holy anger and his holy wrath, our job as servant leaders. And I mean, all of us is to, at the same time we afflict the comfortable. We need to comfort the afflicted. Yes. I love that sensitivity of yours telling your own story so that people can relate, um, because the ones who are most scared of God are the ones that are trying the hardest. Yeah. And we need to come into their, their circle of influence and say, Hey, relax. He drank the cup of wrath, died on the cross. Yes, he did. We now need to move into resurrection life and the fullness of the spirit without ever forgetting the cost. Right? Yeah. But for those, and you were saying, you know, there are some in the D, but for those in the church that are playing games with God, they need the affliction of a prophetic word that calls them back to their first love because, um, the anger of God and the wrath of God are manifest against the church first nations.
Speaker 2 00:19:46 And then the nations, that's the biblical order. Yep. Maybe this would help. I love the simple narrative model because the profound has made himself known in a way that a child can grasp it. And Brian, it's the, it's the problem solution model, right? God is good. And he creates it's his beings to be in fellowship with him and live okay, good life. We turn away from that. Kim Taylor things that maybe we we'd never had the privilege of knowing. Um, and we become part of the problem. We are part of the problem, the enemy he's okay. He's the, he's the problem maker. And we become a problem. We experienced the effects of sin. Other people experienced the effects of sin through us, by what we say. And we do, God comes into our life in Jesus. And he says, I have a solution. And it's the cross.
Speaker 2 00:20:47 And we say, yes, Lord. And he, and we become part of this solution. Right. But this is the picture. Most people miss. Yes, we get problem. Yes, we get solution. Oops, cut my hands. But then God does a remarkable thing. And he's done it with every one of his disciples. Since the garden of Eden, he takes us as the solution and he puts us right back amidst the problem because living with us and through us, he will draw other people to himself and reproduce the process in them. So this begs the question, first of all, those who are a problem to the, to the church, God's angry with that. But those in the church, what is to be done with the church, if it becomes the problem, there is no manifest solution on earth. You know, when someone, let me, let me give you a practical example.
Speaker 2 00:21:49 I still have an 18 year old in the house out of four children. And when we talk about some of these cultural issues, I simply say this, I stand with God because if I don't, then someone who's been tricked by the enemies, delusion in culture, they experienced the wasting powers of sin. And they say, what can I do? I have to be there to offer them God's way so that they can partake of the solution. If not, if the church becomes the problem, part of the problem, well, then that's a recipe for wrath. Wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 1 00:22:32 And I think we're kind of there in a lot of ways, you know?
Speaker 2 00:22:36 Well, when we consider institutionalized church, which is, um, uh, you know, that's a, that's a man-made convention church, of course, as you know, was Jesus's way of saying when kingdom people gathered for the purpose of worship and work, I'm there with them. It's church.
Speaker 1 00:22:53 Yeah. Yeah. And his energy at the same time, Christ is still, and I had to remind myself this he's still patient with the church in its current state of, you know, and when I say that, it we've reached that point. What I mean by that is, I mean that the standard of the gospel has been so watered down. Um, it's not presented, it's presented more as like a feel good drug and a lot of circles, a lot of churches, a lot of, you know, we've got the largest churches we've ever had in our country's history and look at the condition, not of the world, but look at the condition of the church, the churches we've got, the largest churches we've ever had. And it's so diluted. And so there's just so many problems that, you know, we're, we're building on a foundation, the fear of man, and God wants to shift us into building on the foundation of the fear of the Lord.
Speaker 1 00:23:50 And so like I thought of that earlier, when you were saying, you know, people who really fear God are getting closer to them. And you know, I learned this from you guys many years ago that it's about revering. God, you know, it's not afraid like a scary movie it's I, I, I'm trying to see you and fathom your holiness. I'm trying to get in the revelation for picture of your throne and the beauty of who you are and how fascinated with you. And in that process of my life here in earth, um, in this desolate place, it feels like so many times I'm, uh, learning to Revere you and walk in new ways and learn. So like you were saying really a guy that Starbucks with anger, the thing that came to my mind was really just a dose of sobriety, just being sober-minded in Christ, just stopping ourselves and being sober-minded. You can overcome anger today. I mean, it doesn't take a month or two. I mean, yeah, you have to work on it, but it's, it's it's because what you said, we get disconnected, you know, I mean, I'm way more of a short fused guy than you are. I can guarantee you that I'm older than your brother. I tell people I'm like in 10 years, my fuse grew from like a quarter inch to a half inch. That's wrong,
Speaker 2 00:25:09 You know? But in funny, Brian, though, in knowing you, you get mad at the things that make God mad and that's that righteous indignation. I'm not saying always not saying you're
Speaker 1 00:25:17 Perfect, but I agree with, you
Speaker 2 00:25:19 Know, because, and, and brothers, this is one thing we want to make clear, right? We're not condemning anybody. This is part of the righteous indignation process, right? Because when, if the solution becomes the problem, that's our problem. And the here's something important to realize about profits because they're kind of the harbingers of anger and wrath. That's where we get them all the old Testament prophets, you know, it seems like God was mad from the very beginning and that's not true. Again, we're collapsing time, 1500 years. We're getting to the end of a cycle where God has been forbearing and, and, and, uh, long suffering the entire time. Right? That's an important
Speaker 1 00:26:03 When we're reading or connecting
Speaker 2 00:26:05 The testaments, but even a prophet is not standing outside, pointing a bony bony finger at the group. He is within the group saying, we get, we've got to get it together. Here's where we're drifting. Here's where we've strayed. Here's where the presence of God is removing itself from us in order to provoke us back to that unity of seeking the Lord. And one thing, Brian, when you talk, we talk about that. My friend, I have a friend who calls it church Inc. Institutionalized church in America. That is pretty much succumb to culture. You and I look, and we see a lot of great people in the pews there that are consumers of been, have been turned into consumers. And then it goes all the way back to our original story. We were biblically trained in still skimming the surface. We weren't owning the text, the text wasn't owning us.
Speaker 2 00:27:06 We didn't see the narrative as it was still clearly portrayed. We didn't understand that the new covenant in Hebrews eight and in Jeremiah 33 was God wanting to know us. And that that call was personal. We didn't see that when we enter in the narrow gate of Jesus's death, we're now disciples on the pages of the gospels and we're following him in our life, just like they did in theirs. None of these pictures, all the doors of these pictures were closed to us. Now watch this. And I believe the mis-characterization of God is angry is the culprit because Jesus affectively the way the gospel is preached. And I don't see how this is good news is that Jesus came to save us from God. Yeah, that's crazy. There is no discipleship in that. No, we are on our own.
Speaker 1 00:28:04 Now. You're a different, you're not even in the narrative anymore. No. And you're missing
Speaker 2 00:28:09 The best parts of the good news for this reason to send a man appeared to destroy the works of the enemy.
Speaker 1 00:28:14 Yeah. And you just think about, you know, we, we, we labeled it, the prodigal son, but the stories about the father, right, right. His passion to meet you at the gate. So you don't have to walk in shame his passion to bring you a ring and a robe and his passion to, you know, when you had to run in a Clerky, he had to lift his legs and, you know, expose himself and run, you know, and that's the story of our father watching for us to come home, you know, giving us our inheritance, even our stubbornness. And you know, when, when we come to our census, he's there. Even when we offended him at the highest level and spit in his face and took everything, he's still there. I mean, that's the beauty of like this broken soul thing that we have, it's a hundred percent healed in Christ, but yet we're working it out like a little child, you know, like we're and we need each other. That's why grace SOPs champions, this band of brothers concept, like we're, we're not a band of brothers to, to judge one another, uh, to terror one another down. But we are here to, uh, gauge the fruit in.
